Topics

Multiple Echolink Sessions


Bob740
 

Is it possible to have multiple concurrent Echolink sessions in an EchoIRLP system?

Thanks,
Bob
KE0SDV
7268


k9dc
 

Technically possible yes. But not allowed by echolink management. EchoIRLP uses the same software (theBridge) run by echolink conferences, which they charge a recurring fee to operate. As long as you limit the connections to 2, they allow EchoIRLP to exist. Those two consist of the connection back to your local IRLP node, and the second is one outside connection.

-k9dc

On Aug 2, 2020, at 11:50, Bob740 <@Bob740> wrote:

Is it possible to have multiple concurrent Echolink sessions in an EchoIRLP system?

Thanks,
Bob
KE0SDV
7268


Bob740
 

Sounds like I will have to find another solution if I want multiple Echolink sessions. I have heard of a system called AllStarLink that can be used to provide multiple Echolink sessions. We have a PiRLP running EchoIRLP that feeds into a SCOM 7330 with a Kenwood TRK-750 and a TRK-850 linked repeater radios. I wonder if an AllStarLink system can mix in this environment? Probably a question for another forum. Thanks for your help.

Bob
KE0SDV
7268


k9dc
 

Well, the way it is supposed to work is by using a Reflector or an Experimental node with a toe in each network you want to bridge. You are not supposed to bridge any foreign networks in at the node level. You probably need to look in to setting up an EXPerimental node.

-k9dc

On Aug 2, 2020, at 15:17, Bob740 <@Bob740> wrote:

Sounds like I will have to find another solution if I want multiple Echolink sessions. I have heard of a system called AllStarLink that can be used to provide multiple Echolink sessions. We have a PiRLP running EchoIRLP that feeds into a SCOM 7330 with a Kenwood TRK-750 and a TRK-850 linked repeater radios. I wonder if an AllStarLink system can mix in this environment? Probably a question for another forum. Thanks for your help.

Bob
KE0SDV
7268


 

Another "It's theoretically possible, but needs developent" scenario. 
AllStar has all of the necessary hooks to enable it to coexist with an
IRLP node on the same radio, and prevent cross linking.  It does need
some minor tweaks to rpt.conf on the AllStar side, to disable the node
when an IRLP connectin is active, as well as fire off event scripts to
tell IRLP when the AllStar node is busy, whether connected to Echolink
or AllStar.

I have all of those hooks in my AllStar node, but not the mutual
lockouts - I manage that manually by disabling IRLP when I want to use
AllStar, and disconnecting the audio bridge between the two when IRLP is
enabled.  Being my node's only user currently, makes that easy. :)

And to others, no, this isn't going to be finished in a hurry, it will
be an ongoing "slow burn" process. :)

--
73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com


Jeff Daugherty
 

Just run IRLP/Echolink on one port and Allstar on another port.

I have port 1, repeater port 2, irlp/echolink. Port 3 Allstar

 

Jeff

W0NWA

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Tony Langdon
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 10:19 PM
To: IRLP@irlp.groups.io
Subject: Re: [IRLP] Multiple Echolink Sessions

 

Another "It's theoretically possible, but needs developent" scenario. 

AllStar has all of the necessary hooks to enable it to coexist with an

IRLP node on the same radio, and prevent cross linking.  It does need

some minor tweaks to rpt.conf on the AllStar side, to disable the node

when an IRLP connectin is active, as well as fire off event scripts to

tell IRLP when the AllStar node is busy, whether connected to Echolink

or AllStar.

 

I have all of those hooks in my AllStar node, but not the mutual

lockouts - I manage that manually by disabling IRLP when I want to use

AllStar, and disconnecting the audio bridge between the two when IRLP is

enabled.  Being my node's only user currently, makes that easy. :)

 

And to others, no, this isn't going to be finished in a hurry, it will

be an ongoing "slow burn" process. :)

 

--

73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL

http://vkradio.com

 

 

 

 


Bob740
 

I have 2 repeaters (UHF & VHF) linked together. They use 2 ports and EchoIRLP uses the 3rd on the SCOM 7330. Wish it had a 4th port but it does not.

Bob
KE0SDV
7268 


 

On 3/8/20 3:36 pm, Jeff Daugherty wrote:

Just run IRLP/Echolink on one port and Allstar on another port.

I have port 1, repeater port 2, irlp/echolink. Port 3 Allstar

And how do you prevent AllStar  being cross linked to Echolink or IRLP?  This description does not contain that information, and you need to be able to block such crosslinks to be compliant with network policies.


-- 
73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com


k9dc
 

I operate a very similar set up here (TKR-750 and TKR-850 always linked together). Each repeater has its own IRLP node (4730 and 4735), and they are linked together across an IRLP Reflector. Both nodes run the IRLP Repeater Controller package. Both repeaters/nodes use IRLP VPN network connections, so they can share the same cellular Internet connection.

If you happen to set up an EXPerimental reflector, and that reflector also had a presence in the Echolink and Allstar network (or anything else), you could achieve the same objective. Side benefit, you could get rid of the hardware repeater controller entirely.

Basically, the IRLP Reflector is the hub of my network. It also makes it very easy to drop additional repeaters into the network on an as needed basis, either my own or those operated by my friends and neighbors.

-k9dc

On Aug 3, 2020, at 23:36, Bob740 <@Bob740> wrote:

I have 2 repeaters (UHF & VHF) linked together. They use 2 ports and EchoIRLP uses the 3rd on the SCOM 7330. Wish it had a 4th port but it does not.
Bob
KE0SDV
7268


larry_n7fm
 

Hi Tony,

Are you referring to hearing AUDIO from say a repeater on UHF connected to Echolink and a VHF repeater running IRLP all controlled by a multi-port controller that links the 2 repeaters together?

If that is what you are trying to prevent... I doubt that could ever be controlled or prevented by you or anyone else other than the owners.

Most repeater owners believe Audio passing throughout their systems has nothing to do with who decides to come and utilize their system.

Now if you are talking about preventing Allstar/Echolink node from Controlling IRLP or Vice Versa. Easily managed by programming codes or muting DTMF outbound on each system.

Audio is a by-product of using any repeater/transceiver. You don't like it don't go there.

I realize that is not the perfect world that IRLP would prefer. Lets face it. Audio from one system heard on another will not give you the Corona Virus so whether IRLP happens to hear Echolink or Allstar AUDIO when it's connected is it necessarily a bad thing.

Not Controlling IRLP from another system I get. But AUDIO ?

Even Dave Cameron tolerated the different Audio streams when Allstar allowed running
IRLP from their Nodes. Had the DIPS of the world not screwed that up. People would have been able to run all the different Modes from one piece of hardware. I certain don't blame Dave from turning it off when the ding-dongs started playing games with the PGP Keys creating him problems.

As you well know many Reflectors allow the passing of different Audio Streams. Where is the rub if it also happens at a Repeater location. To me it is about CONTROLLING each system separately and believe it or not Some folks DO try to adhere to system guidelines.

Larry - N7FM

On 8/4/20 1:59 AM, Tony Langdon wrote:
On 3/8/20 3:36 pm, Jeff Daugherty wrote:

Just run IRLP/Echolink on one port and Allstar on another port.

I have port 1, repeater port 2, irlp/echolink. Port 3 Allstar
And how do you prevent AllStar  being cross linked to Echolink or IRLP? This description does not contain that information, and you need to be able to block such crosslinks to be compliant with network policies.
--
73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com


k9dc
 

The IRLP Policy is (has always been), an IRLP node may not be connected to another network while connected to an IRLP destination. EchoIRLP takes care of that automatically for Echolink. The node may be connected to IRLP or Echolink separately, but never both at the same time.

From Tony’s messages it sounds like he thinks there may be a way to do that with Allstar nodes as well. But that product does not exist today.

Foreign networks may only be connected at a reflector or an experimental node.

This has been policy since the very beginning. Allstar was never allowed in to the IRLP network from a node, only on a reflectors that were configured to support the other networks.

Even Dave Cameron tolerated the different Audio streams when Allstar allowed running
IRLP from their Nodes.
This is not true. More than 100 nodes were removed from the network for violating the policy against cross-linking. Many of them returned to compliant operation and access to IRLP was restored. Some just turned things off.

As you well know many Reflectors allow the passing of different Audio Streams. Where is the rub if it also happens at a Repeater location.
The rub is, that nodes are capable of PLACING calls to destinations that may not be expecting calls from non-IRLP sources. Reflectors and Experimental nodes cannot place calls. As you suggested, if you don’t like what you hear, don’t go there. The “don’t go there” part can only be assured by limiting the crossover to reflectors, conferences, experimental nodes etc.

-k9dc


On Aug 4, 2020, at 13:10, larry_n7fm <larry@...> wrote:

Hi Tony,

Are you referring to hearing AUDIO from say a repeater on UHF connected to Echolink and a VHF repeater running IRLP all controlled by a multi-port controller that links the 2 repeaters together?

If that is what you are trying to prevent... I doubt that could ever be controlled or prevented by you or anyone else other than the owners.

Most repeater owners believe Audio passing throughout their systems has nothing to do with who decides to come and utilize their system.

Now if you are talking about preventing Allstar/Echolink node from Controlling IRLP or Vice Versa. Easily managed by programming codes or muting DTMF outbound on each system.

Audio is a by-product of using any repeater/transceiver. You don't like it don't go there.

I realize that is not the perfect world that IRLP would prefer. Lets face it. Audio from one system heard on another will not give you the Corona Virus so whether IRLP happens to hear Echolink or Allstar AUDIO when it's connected is it necessarily a bad thing.

Not Controlling IRLP from another system I get. But AUDIO ?

Even Dave Cameron tolerated the different Audio streams when Allstar allowed running
IRLP from their Nodes. Had the DIPS of the world not screwed that up. People would have been able to run all the different Modes from one piece of hardware. I certain don't blame Dave from turning it off when the ding-dongs started playing games with the PGP Keys creating him problems.

As you well know many Reflectors allow the passing of different Audio Streams. Where is the rub if it also happens at a Repeater location. To me it is about CONTROLLING each system separately and believe it or not Some folks DO try to adhere to system guidelines.

Larry - N7FM




On 8/4/20 1:59 AM, Tony Langdon wrote:
On 3/8/20 3:36 pm, Jeff Daugherty wrote:

Just run IRLP/Echolink on one port and Allstar on another port.

I have port 1, repeater port 2, irlp/echolink. Port 3 Allstar
And how do you prevent AllStar being cross linked to Echolink or IRLP? This description does not contain that information, and you need to be able to block such crosslinks to be compliant with network policies.
--
73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com


kald8ajc
 

Apparently you did not understand, I am done! Do not contact me again unless you want to read my work voice! GO AWAY!


On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 1:50 PM k9dc <Dave@...> wrote:

The IRLP Policy is (has always been), an IRLP node may not be connected to another network while connected to an IRLP destination.  EchoIRLP takes care of that automatically for Echolink. The node may be connected to IRLP or Echolink separately, but never both at the same time.

From Tony’s messages it sounds like he thinks there may be a way to do that with Allstar nodes as well. But that product does not exist today.

Foreign networks may only be connected at a reflector or an experimental node.

This has been policy since the very beginning. Allstar was never allowed in to the IRLP network from a node, only on a reflectors that were configured to support the other networks. 

> Even Dave Cameron tolerated the different Audio streams when Allstar allowed running
> IRLP from their Nodes.

This is not true. More than 100 nodes were removed from the network for violating the policy against cross-linking. Many of them returned to compliant operation and access to IRLP was restored. Some just turned things off. 

> As you well know many Reflectors allow the passing of different Audio Streams. Where is the rub if it also happens at a Repeater location.

The rub is, that nodes are capable of PLACING calls to destinations that may not be expecting calls from non-IRLP sources.  Reflectors and Experimental nodes cannot place calls.  As you suggested, if you don’t like what you hear, don’t go there. The “don’t go there” part can only be assured by limiting the crossover to reflectors, conferences, experimental nodes etc.

-k9dc


> On Aug 4, 2020, at 13:10, larry_n7fm <larry@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Tony,
>
> Are you referring to hearing AUDIO from say a repeater on UHF connected to Echolink and a VHF repeater running IRLP all controlled by a multi-port controller that links the 2 repeaters together?
>
> If that is what you are trying to prevent... I doubt that could ever be controlled or prevented by you or anyone else other than the owners.
>
> Most repeater owners believe Audio passing throughout their systems has nothing to do with who decides to come and utilize their system.
>
> Now if you are talking about preventing Allstar/Echolink node from Controlling IRLP or Vice Versa. Easily managed by programming codes or muting DTMF outbound on each system.
>
> Audio is a by-product of using any  repeater/transceiver. You don't like it don't go there.
>
> I realize that is not the perfect world that IRLP would prefer. Lets face it.  Audio from one system heard on another will not give you the Corona Virus so whether IRLP happens to hear Echolink or Allstar AUDIO when it's connected is it necessarily a bad thing.
>
> Not Controlling IRLP from another system I get. But AUDIO ?
>
> Even Dave Cameron tolerated the different Audio streams when Allstar allowed running
> IRLP from their Nodes.  Had the DIPS of the world not screwed that up. People would have been able to run all the different Modes from one piece of hardware. I certain don't blame Dave from turning it off when the ding-dongs started playing games with the PGP Keys creating him problems.
>
> As you well know many Reflectors allow the passing of different Audio Streams. Where is the rub if it also happens at a Repeater location. To me it is about CONTROLLING each system separately and believe it or not Some folks DO try to adhere to system guidelines.
>
> Larry - N7FM
>
>
>
>
> On 8/4/20 1:59 AM, Tony Langdon wrote:
>> On 3/8/20 3:36 pm, Jeff Daugherty wrote:
>>>
>>> Just run IRLP/Echolink on one port and Allstar on another port.
>>>
>>> I have port 1, repeater port 2, irlp/echolink. Port 3 Allstar
>>>
>> And how do you prevent AllStar  being cross linked to Echolink or IRLP?  This description does not contain that information, and you need to be able to block such crosslinks to be compliant with network policies.
>> --
>> 73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
>> http://vkradio.com









kald8ajc
 

i AM DONE WITH irlp. take me off your list.


On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 1:11 PM larry_n7fm <larry@...> wrote:
Hi Tony,

Are you referring to hearing AUDIO from say a repeater on UHF connected
to Echolink and a VHF repeater running IRLP all controlled by a
multi-port controller that links the 2 repeaters together?

If that is what you are trying to prevent... I doubt that could ever be
controlled or prevented by you or anyone else other than the owners.

Most repeater owners believe Audio passing throughout their systems has
nothing to do with who decides to come and utilize their system.

Now if you are talking about preventing Allstar/Echolink node from
Controlling IRLP or Vice Versa. Easily managed by programming codes or
muting DTMF outbound on each system.

Audio is a by-product of using any  repeater/transceiver. You don't like
it don't go there.

I realize that is not the perfect world that IRLP would prefer. Lets
face it.  Audio from one system heard on another will not give you the
Corona Virus so whether IRLP happens to hear Echolink or Allstar AUDIO
when it's connected is it necessarily a bad thing.

Not Controlling IRLP from another system I get. But AUDIO ?

Even Dave Cameron tolerated the different Audio streams when Allstar
allowed running
IRLP from their Nodes. Had the DIPS of the world not screwed that up.
People would have been able to run all the different Modes from one
piece of hardware. I certain don't blame Dave from turning it off when
the ding-dongs started playing games with the PGP Keys creating him
problems.

As you well know many Reflectors allow the passing of different Audio
Streams. Where is the rub if it also happens at a Repeater location. To
me it is about CONTROLLING each system separately and believe it or not
Some folks DO try to adhere to system guidelines.

Larry - N7FM




On 8/4/20 1:59 AM, Tony Langdon wrote:
> On 3/8/20 3:36 pm, Jeff Daugherty wrote:
>>
>> Just run IRLP/Echolink on one port and Allstar on another port.
>>
>> I have port 1, repeater port 2, irlp/echolink. Port 3 Allstar
>>
> And how do you prevent AllStar  being cross linked to Echolink or IRLP? 
> This description does not contain that information, and you need to be
> able to block such crosslinks to be compliant with network policies.
>
>
> --
> 73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
> http://vkradio.com
>
>




k9dc
 

Unsubscribing is something you have to do yourself. Instructions and links are at the bottom of every email you receive from the group. Or you can log in to groups.io and remove your subscription that way. One way that will absolutely NOT work is to ask for that over the list.

-k9dc

On Aug 4, 2020, at 14:18, kald8ajc <kd8ajc@...> wrote:

i AM DONE WITH irlp. take me off your list.


 

On 5/8/20 3:10 am, larry_n7fm wrote:
Hi Tony,

Are you referring to hearing AUDIO from say a repeater on UHF
connected to Echolink and a VHF repeater running IRLP all controlled
by a multi-port controller that links the 2 repeaters together?
No, what RF is linked is not an issue, provided there's no unwanted hang
ti, IDS or other issues, but audio from other local RF sources, like
multiple repeaters is not a problem in itself.  But that wasn't the
issue I was addressing.  I am talking about the case where you have
multiple repeaters linked together on the same controller via RF.

Now if you are talking about preventing Allstar/Echolink node from
Controlling IRLP or Vice Versa. Easily managed by programming codes or
muting DTMF outbound on each system.
Not just controlling (which can be easily managed by ensuring the DTMF
code spaces are separate, and muting DTMF), but passing audio between
IRLP and foreign RoIP networks.

Audio is a by-product of using any  repeater/transceiver. You don't
like it don't go there.

I realize that is not the perfect world that IRLP would prefer. Lets
face it.  Audio from one system heard on another will not give you the
Corona Virus so whether IRLP happens to hear Echolink or Allstar AUDIO
when it's connected is it necessarily a bad thing.

Not Controlling IRLP from another system I get. But AUDIO ?
Dave G explained it in detail.  These rules go back to the early days
and were to ensure peaceful coexistence.


Even Dave Cameron tolerated the different Audio streams when Allstar
allowed running
IRLP from their Nodes. Had the DIPS of the world not screwed that up.
People would have been able to run all the different Modes from one
piece of hardware. I certain don't blame Dave from turning it off when
the ding-dongs started playing games with the PGP Keys creating him
problems.
No, the crossing over of audio was one of the big problems with AllStar
entering the network.  No one bothered to do anything about it at those
nodes, so there was a big falling out.  As it turns out, preventing
AllStar from being linked to IRLP at a node may not be too difficult. 
More work needs to be done.

As you well know many Reflectors allow the passing of different Audio
Streams. Where is the rub if it also happens at a Repeater location.
To me it is about CONTROLLING each system separately and believe it or
not Some folks DO try to adhere to system guidelines.
With reflectors (and experimental nodes), these only accept incoming
connections, and do not make outbound connections to nodes, so the
"don't go there" principle works well.  This is why these systems allow
cross links.  Nodes both accept and make connections, meaning
unintentional and potentially unwanted cross links can happen, unless
measures are taken to block those.

--
73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com


larry_n7fm
 

Thanks for the input Tony.

I personally never moved my IRLP node to the Allstar hardware after discussing some of the pitfalls with Dave C. Audio being a problem was never mentioned by him. Dave did mention that since the Allstar node didn't receive any nightly updates future changes/updates could create problems for them in the long term.

I just sent a message to Dave G. Indicating something I discovered just a few days ago.

Where an RF user connects RF wise to my repeater but is using a transceiver that has a hosted Allstar/Echolink node. If dialed onto my Repeater frequency after it's connect message to other systems has already broadcast or was muted I have no knowledge of the other VOIP systems being connected.

On my repeater, RF input knows nothing of his other connection and treats all signals just like it is a local RF signal with great Audio.

That becomes my reason for making my audio is audio statement. I have only a single IRLP connected and passing a single IRLP AUDIO stream to whatever IRLP system I am connect to.

Be no different than having 17 HAM guest visiting me. Each sitting here taking turns talking on a hand held to the repeater located at my house. No way to tell if one is talking on an ICOM, Yaesu, Kenwood or Boafeng or from someones kitchen chair in Iceland.

Now if one HAM stuttered we could gang up and discriminate against his AUDIO saying he has to be out of RF range (cut him OFF!).

The RF user has no physical connection to my network. The only way a person could prevent other audio inputs coming from RF would be a personal request to the user to not do that.
First you need to be aware it is happening.

Technically I do not see that as something that bridges the 2 systems. But that is my own opinion. My IRLP audio comes from my radio/HT and if other users sends signal from his radio it comes from two different RF paths to my repeater resulting in an audio output. How to tell which is allowed to be heard by IRLP users becomes the real ch ch chaa allenge.

As I say Audio is Audio to me and when a signal arrives at my location via RF and you don't want to hear it never connect to me. It is like any radio if you dial or connect somewhere and don't like what you hear ...two choices change channels or use your off button.

Anyway nothing to squabble about. This AUDIO problem has been going on for a long time and be it good or bad. People will do what they want.

Covid-19 has proven that (Grin)

Take Care

Larry - N7FM

On 8/4/20 8:02 PM, Tony Langdon wrote:
On 5/8/20 3:10 am, larry_n7fm wrote:
Hi Tony,

Are you referring to hearing AUDIO from say a repeater on UHF
connected to Echolink and a VHF repeater running IRLP all controlled
by a multi-port controller that links the 2 repeaters together?
No, what RF is linked is not an issue, provided there's no unwanted hang
ti, IDS or other issues, but audio from other local RF sources, like
multiple repeaters is not a problem in itself.  But that wasn't the
issue I was addressing.  I am talking about the case where you have
multiple repeaters linked together on the same controller via RF.

Now if you are talking about preventing Allstar/Echolink node from
Controlling IRLP or Vice Versa. Easily managed by programming codes or
muting DTMF outbound on each system.
Not just controlling (which can be easily managed by ensuring the DTMF
code spaces are separate, and muting DTMF), but passing audio between
IRLP and foreign RoIP networks.

Audio is a by-product of using any  repeater/transceiver. You don't
like it don't go there.

I realize that is not the perfect world that IRLP would prefer. Lets
face it.  Audio from one system heard on another will not give you the
Corona Virus so whether IRLP happens to hear Echolink or Allstar AUDIO
when it's connected is it necessarily a bad thing.

Not Controlling IRLP from another system I get. But AUDIO ?
Dave G explained it in detail.  These rules go back to the early days
and were to ensure peaceful coexistence.


Even Dave Cameron tolerated the different Audio streams when Allstar
allowed running
IRLP from their Nodes. Had the DIPS of the world not screwed that up.
People would have been able to run all the different Modes from one
piece of hardware. I certain don't blame Dave from turning it off when
the ding-dongs started playing games with the PGP Keys creating him
problems.
No, the crossing over of audio was one of the big problems with AllStar
entering the network.  No one bothered to do anything about it at those
nodes, so there was a big falling out.  As it turns out, preventing
AllStar from being linked to IRLP at a node may not be too difficult.
More work needs to be done.

As you well know many Reflectors allow the passing of different Audio
Streams. Where is the rub if it also happens at a Repeater location.
To me it is about CONTROLLING each system separately and believe it or
not Some folks DO try to adhere to system guidelines.
With reflectors (and experimental nodes), these only accept incoming
connections, and do not make outbound connections to nodes, so the
"don't go there" principle works well.  This is why these systems allow
cross links.  Nodes both accept and make connections, meaning
unintentional and potentially unwanted cross links can happen, unless
measures are taken to block those.


 

On 5/8/20 5:06 pm, larry_n7fm wrote:
Thanks for the input Tony.

I personally never moved my IRLP node to the Allstar hardware after
discussing some of the pitfalls with Dave C. Audio being a problem was
never mentioned by him. Dave did mention that since the Allstar node
didn't receive any nightly updates future changes/updates could create
problems for them in the long term.
Again, possibly solvable, with careful use of symbolic links, and a
separate directory for AllStar's version of the IRLP files.  Obviously,
this discussion is academic these days.

I just sent a message to Dave G. Indicating something I discovered
just a few days ago.

Where an RF user connects RF wise to my repeater but is using a
transceiver that has a hosted Allstar/Echolink node. If dialed onto my
Repeater frequency after it's connect message to other systems has
already broadcast or was muted I have no knowledge of the other VOIP
systems being connected.
And THAT is part of the problem, anyone cdonnecting to you has no idea
what else you're connected to.  Technical and semantic arguments aren't
the way to understand the issue, it's actually a cultural issue.  IRLP
is built around the premise that all links originate or terminate on
RF.  Even a node like mine, which is currently running more like a
hotspot has a radio (multiple actually!), which is the only way to
access the system.  There's noInternet based connectivity, something
that both Echolink (natively) and AllStar (on a node by node basis via
DVSwitch or IAXRpt, among others) allow.  The potential intrusion of non
RF sources goes against the philosophy of IRLP.

Don't get me wrong, I love Echolink and AllStar, and use both, but
ad-hoc linking of them to IRLP at the node level is not appropriate,
because of these cultural differences between the networks.  It's far
better to do any cross linking on reflectors and experimental nodes, and
letting IRLP node owners to choose whether they want their nodes to go
there or not.

On my repeater, RF input knows nothing of his other connection and
treats all signals just like it is a local RF signal with great Audio.
Again, that's a technical explanation, which ignores the cultural issues.

That becomes my reason for making my audio is audio statement. I have
only a single IRLP connected and passing a single IRLP AUDIO stream to
whatever IRLP system I am connect to.
Technically, sure, but culturally, it's not the same.  RF and
(potential) non RF origins are quite different philosophies.  Neither is
correct or incorrect, they are just different, and mutually exclusive at
the network level, because theu're somewhat opposing philosophies.

Be no different than having 17 HAM guest visiting me. Each sitting
here taking turns talking on a hand held to the repeater located at my
house. No way to tell if one is talking on an ICOM, Yaesu, Kenwood or
Boafeng or from someones kitchen chair in Iceland.
Again it is, none of those hams is dialling into your node and speaking
over the phone (and until relatively recently, phone patches were
illegal here in VK).  Again, technical arguments aren't relevant here.

--
73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com


larry_n7fm
 

Thanks Tony ...

I get what you are telling me...

However in my case I was telling you I am RF to RF compliant. The problem is IRLP can want what it wants culturally but as long as an IRLP Node is enabled and listening to a RF input. Technology has made changes that will force some flex on their policy. There is no way you can prevent a received RF signals from containing AUDIO from other VOIP modes baring the elimination of all input signals to all IRLP Nodes.

That is a technical fact that can't be ignored by Cultural Wishers. Everything changes or becomes extinct in time.

Yes you can replace the DIAL ability for connect and disconnect coming from RF and prevent people from calling other nodes to a group connection etc. A Technical problem easily solved.

However once a legal IRLP connection is activated The AUDIO to the IRLP connection will pass whatever the incoming RF signal contains. Be it speech, Kids screaming, Allstar, Echolink, IRLP or whatever AUDIO is encompassed in the RF Signal and received over the airwaves. That does not LINK my NODE with anything it hears RF and that is that.

Due to technological changes over the years. RF Signals can now contain translated AUDIO from other VOIP platforms. Meaning that RF content or source could be a Moonbounce signal or an HF contact. Once a legal IRLP connection is activated The signal to the IRLP connection will pass whatever the incoming RF signal's Audio content is. IRLP has no way of distinguishing where the RF signal originated from. Nor should they be able to tell me what RF signal I must reject or allow my repeater to hear. It's speech and who made it, where they were sitting while talking is irrelevant. It is my repeater's RF signal providing my IRLP Nodes Audio for distribution on IRLP.

I have violated no rule by connecting to anything other than my own IRLP Node.

Subject matter, type of RF radio, where I live when the RF Signal arrived or who sent it is none of IRLP concern. It's Audio came from MY NODE period.

Because AUDIO is AUDIO without distinction of origin due mainly to RF being part of the equation. Wishing for it to be otherwise is fine but technically Not Enforceable without destroying IRLP.

Take care

Larry - N7FM

On 8/5/20 12:43 AM, Tony Langdon wrote:
On 5/8/20 5:06 pm, larry_n7fm wrote:
Thanks for the input Tony.

I personally never moved my IRLP node to the Allstar hardware after
discussing some of the pitfalls with Dave C. Audio being a problem was
never mentioned by him. Dave did mention that since the Allstar node
didn't receive any nightly updates future changes/updates could create
problems for them in the long term.
Again, possibly solvable, with careful use of symbolic links, and a
separate directory for AllStar's version of the IRLP files.  Obviously,
this discussion is academic these days.

I just sent a message to Dave G. Indicating something I discovered
just a few days ago.

Where an RF user connects RF wise to my repeater but is using a
transceiver that has a hosted Allstar/Echolink node. If dialed onto my
Repeater frequency after it's connect message to other systems has
already broadcast or was muted I have no knowledge of the other VOIP
systems being connected.
And THAT is part of the problem, anyone cdonnecting to you has no idea
what else you're connected to.  Technical and semantic arguments aren't
the way to understand the issue, it's actually a cultural issue.  IRLP
is built around the premise that all links originate or terminate on
RF.  Even a node like mine, which is currently running more like a
hotspot has a radio (multiple actually!), which is the only way to
access the system.  There's noInternet based connectivity, something
that both Echolink (natively) and AllStar (on a node by node basis via
DVSwitch or IAXRpt, among others) allow.  The potential intrusion of non
RF sources goes against the philosophy of IRLP.
Don't get me wrong, I love Echolink and AllStar, and use both, but
ad-hoc linking of them to IRLP at the node level is not appropriate,
because of these cultural differences between the networks.  It's far
better to do any cross linking on reflectors and experimental nodes, and
letting IRLP node owners to choose whether they want their nodes to go
there or not.

On my repeater, RF input knows nothing of his other connection and
treats all signals just like it is a local RF signal with great Audio.
Again, that's a technical explanation, which ignores the cultural issues.

That becomes my reason for making my audio is audio statement. I have
only a single IRLP connected and passing a single IRLP AUDIO stream to
whatever IRLP system I am connect to.
Technically, sure, but culturally, it's not the same.  RF and
(potential) non RF origins are quite different philosophies.  Neither is
correct or incorrect, they are just different, and mutually exclusive at
the network level, because theu're somewhat opposing philosophies.

Be no different than having 17 HAM guest visiting me. Each sitting
here taking turns talking on a hand held to the repeater located at my
house. No way to tell if one is talking on an ICOM, Yaesu, Kenwood or
Boafeng or from someones kitchen chair in Iceland.
Again it is, none of those hams is dialling into your node and speaking
over the phone (and until relatively recently, phone patches were
illegal here in VK).  Again, technical arguments aren't relevant here.


k9dc
 

Larry,

What we are talking about within our rules, are the designed in, or intentional links to other products. Enhanced propagation happens, just like intermod and interference. Accidents can occur and we are not expecting networks be absolutely protected from any possibility of cross-linksd traffic. PL or DCS squelch will take care of most of that.

This is probably a bigger problem for simplex nodes than for repeaters. Repeaters are generally coordinated, including tone squelch. They are usually at fixed locations and the owners are likely to be aware of surrounding activity. Simplex nodes, not so much. Home based, frequency agile configurations, plus they are often not monitored. It is sometimes not possible to even hear the node receiver in some of the small portable nodes.

What is not permitted by IRLP policy are the intentional crosslinks, either with direct hardwire links, RF between sites or some software creation that provides your IRLP node simultaneous access to multiple products. If 2 meters blows up some night and you find your repeater carrying Echolink or Allstar from 400 miles away, just disconnect it for a while. Operators make mistakes. Stuff happens. Just don’t make it on purpose.

-k9dc

On Aug 5, 2020, at 07:23, larry_n7fm <larry@...> wrote:

Thanks Tony ...

I get what you are telling me...

However in my case I was telling you I am RF to RF compliant. The problem is IRLP can want what it wants culturally but as long as an IRLP Node is enabled and listening to a RF input. Technology has made changes that will force some flex on their policy. There is no way you can prevent a received RF signals from containing AUDIO from other VOIP modes baring the elimination of all input signals to all IRLP Nodes.

That is a technical fact that can't be ignored by Cultural Wishers. Everything changes or becomes extinct in time.

Yes you can replace the DIAL ability for connect and disconnect coming from RF and prevent people from calling other nodes to a group connection etc. A Technical problem easily solved.

However once a legal IRLP connection is activated The AUDIO to the IRLP connection will pass whatever the incoming RF signal contains. Be it speech, Kids screaming, Allstar, Echolink, IRLP or whatever AUDIO is encompassed in the RF Signal and received over the airwaves. That does not LINK my NODE with anything it hears RF and that is that.

Due to technological changes over the years. RF Signals can now contain translated AUDIO from other VOIP platforms. Meaning that RF content or source could be a Moonbounce signal or an HF contact. Once a legal IRLP connection is activated The signal to the IRLP connection will pass whatever the incoming RF signal's Audio content is. IRLP has no way of distinguishing where the RF signal originated from. Nor should they be able to tell me what RF signal I must reject or allow my repeater to hear. It's speech and who made it, where they were sitting while talking is irrelevant. It is my repeater's RF signal providing my IRLP Nodes Audio for distribution on IRLP.

I have violated no rule by connecting to anything other than my own IRLP Node.

Subject matter, type of RF radio, where I live when the RF Signal arrived or who sent it is none of IRLP concern. It's Audio came from MY NODE period.

Because AUDIO is AUDIO without distinction of origin due mainly to RF being part of the equation. Wishing for it to be otherwise is fine but technically Not Enforceable without destroying IRLP.

Take care

Larry - N7FM


larry_n7fm
 

Dave,Tony

Thanks for the discussion.

Larry - N7FM

On 8/5/20 7:37 AM, k9dc wrote:
Larry,
What we are talking about within our rules, are the designed in, or intentional links to other products. Enhanced propagation happens, just like intermod and interference. Accidents can occur and we are not expecting networks be absolutely protected from any possibility of cross-linksd traffic. PL or DCS squelch will take care of most of that.
This is probably a bigger problem for simplex nodes than for repeaters. Repeaters are generally coordinated, including tone squelch. They are usually at fixed locations and the owners are likely to be aware of surrounding activity. Simplex nodes, not so much. Home based, frequency agile configurations, plus they are often not monitored. It is sometimes not possible to even hear the node receiver in some of the small portable nodes.
What is not permitted by IRLP policy are the intentional crosslinks, either with direct hardwire links, RF between sites or some software creation that provides your IRLP node simultaneous access to multiple products. If 2 meters blows up some night and you find your repeater carrying Echolink or Allstar from 400 miles away, just disconnect it for a while. Operators make mistakes. Stuff happens. Just don’t make it on purpose.
-k9dc

On Aug 5, 2020, at 07:23, larry_n7fm <larry@...> wrote:

Thanks Tony ...

I get what you are telling me...

However in my case I was telling you I am RF to RF compliant. The problem is IRLP can want what it wants culturally but as long as an IRLP Node is enabled and listening to a RF input. Technology has made changes that will force some flex on their policy. There is no way you can prevent a received RF signals from containing AUDIO from other VOIP modes baring the elimination of all input signals to all IRLP Nodes.

That is a technical fact that can't be ignored by Cultural Wishers. Everything changes or becomes extinct in time.

Yes you can replace the DIAL ability for connect and disconnect coming from RF and prevent people from calling other nodes to a group connection etc. A Technical problem easily solved.

However once a legal IRLP connection is activated The AUDIO to the IRLP connection will pass whatever the incoming RF signal contains. Be it speech, Kids screaming, Allstar, Echolink, IRLP or whatever AUDIO is encompassed in the RF Signal and received over the airwaves. That does not LINK my NODE with anything it hears RF and that is that.

Due to technological changes over the years. RF Signals can now contain translated AUDIO from other VOIP platforms. Meaning that RF content or source could be a Moonbounce signal or an HF contact. Once a legal IRLP connection is activated The signal to the IRLP connection will pass whatever the incoming RF signal's Audio content is. IRLP has no way of distinguishing where the RF signal originated from. Nor should they be able to tell me what RF signal I must reject or allow my repeater to hear. It's speech and who made it, where they were sitting while talking is irrelevant. It is my repeater's RF signal providing my IRLP Nodes Audio for distribution on IRLP.

I have violated no rule by connecting to anything other than my own IRLP Node.

Subject matter, type of RF radio, where I live when the RF Signal arrived or who sent it is none of IRLP concern. It's Audio came from MY NODE period.

Because AUDIO is AUDIO without distinction of origin due mainly to RF being part of the equation. Wishing for it to be otherwise is fine but technically Not Enforceable without destroying IRLP.

Take care

Larry - N7FM